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The Berlin Wall (or lack thereof)
Posted to %afda by pieceoftheuniverse on 31 August and 5 September 2000iain wrote (an obref ;)
> > "The Berlin Wall. The border between East and West Germany.
> > It's very narrow. The point I'm trying to make . . ."
> >
> > of course, this takes on a new meaning now, since the Berlin Wall really
> > doesn't exist any more
> >
then Nikitta wondered:
> Does this mean that the piece I have of it has also disspeared in a puff of
> logic???
and then pieceoftheuniverse came up with this, er, interesting logic:
Only if you succeed in proving that it never existed in the first place.
Let's see...
The Berlin Wall does not exist.
The Berlin Wall does not exist, but it has a name.
The Berlin Wall has a name because of an event in history.
History is caused by the perception that time breeds events.
Events are caused by the perception that time causes history.
This is circular logic, and therefore must be flawed.
If it is flawed, then it is most likely not true.
If it is not true, then history is not true.
If history is not true, then it never happened.
If history never happened, then there was no such thing as the Berlin Wall.
Quick! Go and see if you still own it!
Matthew Francis objected:
> But if history never happened neither did we. History, time and events
> are only illusions created by our subconscious minds to make up for
> discrepancies between what we can currently see, hear, smell, taste and
> feel and what we appear to have sensed. This suggests that we must
> exist, does it not? If we exist, time and space must logically exist for
> us to exist inside. If we exist within time and space, then history and
> events must have happened because time passes, even if they're mutually
> exclusive.
> If we take it that neither can exist, then neither can time or space (I
> think. I might just have confused myself into nonsense. Please tell me
> if I have). If time and space do not exist, we do not exist to have this
> debate (I'm running backwards over what I've done to check it's
> correct). If we're not having this debate then...
but naturally, pieceoftheuniverse had an answer :o)
My point -- if I had one; if not, I'm going to pretend I did anyway and keep going -- is that we have not guarantee that time started when we think it did. We have a history based on nothing more that circumstantial evidence and hearsay. The fact that several people seem to agree on the hearsay makes it no more true than if I were to say we were all a vivid shade of purple just yesterday and managed to convince a few hundred of the same. In essence, no more than a cult of past-worshippers.
Therefore, what Nikkita has is not a piece of the Berlin Wall, but a stone that she -believes- came from Berlin. In fact, she picked it up off the street a few days ago -- if we even existed then. We might not exist now; the memory of me typing this could be artificially induced.
Life takes on a new perspective when you doubt literally everything and anything, doesn't it?
> Oh, I give up. I'm going to stick my head in a bucket of water and try
> to recover.
"What's he saying?"
"Hmm? Oh, nothing -- he just called to wash his head at us."
[Hey look, that's circular too. We started and ended with an obref!]
